'No Guide for This’ Episode 7: Yes, I’m Judging

In this day and age, there are so many new pressures on parents and those who are trying to conceive that it’s tempting to just drown out the noise. Our No Guide for This podcast hosts Jen Hayes Lee and Sasha Smith are at different stages of their lives—Jen married with three kids, Sasha married in a new house—and trying to navigate it all as busy professional women.

In this candid conversation, Jen and Sasha weigh what’s worth judging when it comes to parenting (hint: you’ve got to give up your seat for the very pregnant woman on the train!) and what’s okay to let go. From how to make mom friends you actually like to the pressure to curate the perfect social media feed, they touch on topics that every parent and parent-to-be can relate to—and they have opinions. It gets personal too: Sasha opens up about her fertility journey, and Jen talks about the benefits of growing up with an ambitious, career-driven mom. Buckle up, this is a spicy one!

Keep scrolling to watch the vodcast episode with Sasha and Jen! You can also listen to the full audio podcast on Spotify and Apple Music.

Meet Our Guests

Jen Hayes Lee is a passionate content champion and marketing executive, dedicated to the creation of culturally relevant, inclusive storytelling, developed to inspire and empower families of color. As the Head of Marketing and Content at The Bump, Jen stewards editorial and marketing initiatives to support parents and parents-to-be as they navigate life with baby. Jen has three children and lives in New Jersey.

Sasha Smith is a creative thinker with a passion for social media and marketing. As the Senior Brand Development Manager for The Bump, she oversees all organic and paid social media channels along with the development of video channel strategies to bring The Bump’s content into the future. She is not yet a parent herself, however she has found a true love for helping parents and parents-to-be through the guidance, support and empowerment that The Bump offers its inclusive community.

Episode Transcript

Jen: Hi, I’m Jen.
Sasha: Hi, I’m Sasha. And this is No Guide for This, a podcast where we talk about all things adulting and adulting with kids. So we’re going to get right into it today. Jen and I want to start with one of my favorite segments, which is Can’t Make This Up. Let’s do it. So I saw something from Heidi Montag on social, and she had her child on a leash. And me being from Orlando, I go to Disney and I see this a lot recently. And today’s episode is about “yes, I’m judging.” So for me, back in the day, I probably would’ve judged—now, not so much. But what do you think about the whole child on a leash thing?
Jen: Oh my gosh, so many feelings about this, Sasha. I will definitely be the first to admit: Children on leashes—not a good look for me. Certainly with three kids. Definitely not cute. And I would say furthermore, my thought about it is sort of like if you are not the type of parent who can keep your kids in order while you’re out, maybe you need to stay home. This is my pre-kid opinion. Post-kid, lots of change. As you know, I’m a mom of three boys, who despite my best efforts at times can be rambunctious. We like to use the word “spirited” in my house. And so you can never predict when one of them is going to have a bad day, especially when you’re juggling three. And maybe if you’re alone, you’ve got three little ones. So I will say my tactic has been to just not ever go out alone. Because I’m trying to avoid that exact needing a leash scenario. So I think I’ve gone from definitely judging the leash to being neutral to understanding why and just controlling my own destiny when it comes to being out with kids in environments like Disney. But I mean, I do think there are exceptions. And if there ever were an exception, it would be the Disney amusement park. What about you?
Sasha: I used to judge this. It would give me the “Is that your pet?” vibe. Is that your child or your dog? What are we doing here? I’d probably say, if you can’t handle your kid, don’t go out in public or don’t be in this space. But I understand sometimes now parenting is different. You might be a solo parent, maybe your child is very spirited. So I totally understand. And then I also think nowadays the world is just a very scary place. So I can imagine that feeling that your heart skips a beat when you can’t see them for a split second and you’re like, where’s my child? So I get it more now, I definitely don’t judge if I see it. I’m like, mom, do your thing. All power to you.
Jen: Yeah. Actually, you made me think of something that I have to fess up to. We had a birthday party for one of my sons the other week, and we were at a bowling alley, a nice low-key bowling situation. Nothing crazy. And the party was wrapping up and we were about to sing happy birthday. And it was for my 5-year-old’s birthday party. I also have a 7-year-old and a 10-year-old. And so we were gathering all the kids from the lane saying like, okay, let’s go sing, blow out candles, all that good stuff. And I was like, where’s my 10-year-old? My heart skipped a beat. We checked the bathrooms, we checked the game room. So it was a full moment. We can’t find him. I went out in the parking lot to see if there were any moving vehicles because the bowling alley was only so big. And turns out he was in the game room where we had already looked twice, but he was inside of a photo booth. But in that moment, I was like, I should have had a leash on him!
Sasha: And that’s the other thing, the whole Apple tagging. I’ve seen that on social where they put the Apple tags in the kid’s shoe and backpack, which I think is such a great idea. I’ve done it for my dog. So if I do it for dogs, I can only imagine, I’ll probably do it for my kids.
Jen: Absolutely. So I think it’s really just about figuring out what little devices, mechanisms, systems you can put in place to control your environment as much as possible without being so overbearing that you look like a weirdo when you’re not in person.
Sasha: And we mentioned something in another episode about mom guilt and not feeling guilty about what you need to do. So I think that kind of goes in the same, okay, judge me all you want, this is what works for me.
Jen: Deal with it. And again, for me, I think there are certain scenarios going back to Disney, we have sort of a minimum age in which we would even take a child to Disney. I think 4 years old was where we were like, okay, if the kid’s not 4, why are we paying $200 for admission? They’re not going to remember it. They can’t get on any rides. All we’re going to be doing is carrying them around while the others are having fun. This sounds like a setup for failure.
Sasha: I like that. Yeah, that’s really cool. So we’re going to talk about a couple things about judging and not judging, but I do want to ask you, Jen, can you think of a moment recently when you judged another parent, even subconsciously, maybe it wasn’t something that you did on purpose, but you looked at something that another parent was doing and just had a second thought? Jen: You know what? I will say I have been known to be a little bit judgmental, however, in a good way only. I think we all do it, so it is natural. A recent time where I’ve judged another parent—I do certainly have much more empathy now than I used to—was when I went to the movies to see Captain America, and there was a parent whose kids were running amuck. Now, these were not young kids, these were teenagers that were talking loud, getting up, going back and forth down the aisles. And I’m like, dude, at this point, am I going to have a conversation with your teenager or am I having the conversation with you? Let’s have some civility here. This is a movie that we all paid $25 to get in to see. Let’s respect each other’s time and space. And I think that’s another thing that you have to really think about too, as a parent, do you have permission to discipline someone else’s kids?
Sasha: That’s what I was going to ask. What would you do in that situation? Would you tell the kids? Because I know some parents can get very defensive even if they know their child is in the wrong or there’s something that they should have been doing better. It can kind of feel a little harsh for some parents to just all of a sudden hear somebody else trying to discipline their child. I mean, for me, I have friends that have kids and there’s times where I’m like, I really want to tell their child to sit down and behave, but their parents are around. I’m like, that’s their job. But then when the mom or my friend goes to the other room, I’m like, hey, sit down, behave. And I’ll feel a little bit more comfortable to tell the child to do something. But in front of the parent, I feel a little like, no, I don’t want to do this and I don’t want to upset them. And what if that’s not how they want to parent? What if they’re cool with their child jumping on the couch and running all over me?
Jen: You’re bringing up something that is very real because no two parents are the same. And I can honestly tell you that I have seen friendships break up between moms who were formally best friends who just had different approaches to what discipline looked like. In short, two mom friends of mine had daughters who were the same age, and the daughters got into a little conflict, a little bit of a scuffle, they were under 12 I think at the time. And the daughters, maybe one was bossy, a little mean girl situation. One was feeling spoken down to. And one mom really wanted her mom friend to step in and say, tell your daughter to pull up a little bit. And then the other mom felt like, why are you judging my kid? And they ultimately decided to just part ways. And these were people that spent a lot of time together and I was friends with both of them and ended up only really keeping one of them in the divorce because the other friend stopped coming around. Really and truly, and as someone who had younger kids, it really made me think twice about when our kids eventually will have issues with each other, how to handle it. When you’re early in your parenting days and your kids are all 6 months, one year, 3 years old, the kids are friends with each other because the moms or the dads or the parents are friends, so they’re forced into these playdates. But once the kids have autonomy and authority of their own to pick and choose their friends, it can affect the adult friendships.
Sasha: That made me think, what do you do? Say your son has a friend from school and he wants a playdate, and maybe you don’t like the way their parents are. And now you are forced to be friends with that parent or see that parent or interact with them and see how their kid behaves. What do you do with that?
Jen: As someone who likes to control my destiny, as I mentioned, as much as possible, this is awful to say, but I try to avoid playdates like that. I will encourage and steer my kids towards certain friends. I mean, listen, at the end of the day, I want my kids to have their own organic relationships, but when they’re really young, it can get awkward if you have to be at someone’s house sitting at the kitchen counter, trying to make conversation for 90 minutes if you have nothing in common, and you’re just here because your child loves that person from school. And let me give you the real lowdown on this. If there is an awkward parent in the bunch or in the class, your other friends will give you a warning. Don’t take a playdate with Johnny. Trust me. It’ll be the worst 90 minutes of your life, and I always appreciate a heads up. Or they’ll say like, hey, if you have to go to Johnny’s house for a playdate, bring your laptop and pretend like you’re working. On the flip side too, you might see another parent at dropoff and you’re like, ooh, this parent looks cool. Or they look like my type of vibe. Oh, I liked her outfit. And you’ll be like, then you come home and you ask your kid, hey, are you friends with Johnny? Yeah. Are you and Johnny hanging out? And so it can work both ways.
Sasha: Ooh, I like that. Then you mentioned something like seeing the mom at dropoff. Do you judge moms during dropoff? That’s something I think of, mom is put together or mom always has to look her best.
Jen: Yeah. I don’t even think it’s about looking your best. It’s just a vibe. So I don’t really think it’s as much about are they put together as much as the vibe. There’s sort of a vibe check you can do to feel like you’re on a similar wavelength with another parent. And the spectrum today of what parenting can look like, what it means, is so wide and thank goodness for it. There’s not just one way to be a mom these days. And so I think you can kind of identify your tribe. But I will tell you, not much has changed from second grade. I’ll go to school events sometimes, and there’ll be a pocket of moms that are in one corner that are kind of chatting with each other that kind of are the same. There’s a little mom clique there, they’re little mom cliques. And I’ve been to school events and birthday parties where I’m like, I don’t see any of my people here. And I’m like, well, certainly you should want to talk to me. I’m the cool one. But it’s like, I seriously thought this stuff ended at high school. But it does tend to bleed into work. And having your little tribe at work. And then in motherhood when it comes to, okay, I’m at a school sporting event or I’m at a birthday party because my kid loves this kid, but I don’t know anybody there. And then that’s when I’m going to negotiate with my husband to be like, you’re going to take this one. So he’ll be like, fine, I’ll do it.
Sasha: I did want to ask you, do you ever feel judged by your partner in terms of maybe your parenting style or the way that you discipline or how you mom?
Jen: Just be warned. I’m going to flip this question right back at you. This is a really loaded question, but it’s also an easy one to answer. I do feel judged sometimes. And I think in my scenario I have a good problem. The good problem that I have is that my husband is the world’s best dad. He’s so involved. He’s not only taking them to the sports practices and the games, he’s coaching the team. He’s the one who will show up and read for the pre-K class. He’s the organizer. He’s taken the lead a little bit there, I can admit it.
Sasha: So do you feel judged sometimes that he takes care of those things and that you’re out there doing what you got to do and it’s like that should be, I guess, technically your role?
Jen: Traditionally? Yeah. Traditionally your mom’s role. And yeah, I do feel judged. And I don’t know how much of it is my perceived I’m feeling judged versus actually being judged and maybe a little bit of my insecurity about the fact that I’m not doing more of that stuff. But the truth is, we’ve got three kids. We have a home to manage. I have more than one job. He has more than one job. We are juggling a lot. And so I think the truth is that it takes a lot of different tasks and roles and hats that we have to wear to make the day work, to make our life work. And I keep saying we have a big life, and anytime I start to feel overwhelmed by that big life that we created, I have to remember, this is the life that I wanted. And so we’re in it. Every now and then he’ll be like, are you coming to the basketball game today? And I was like, is this a trick question? Because I really wanted to go get a manicure. And so yeah, I do feel a little bit judged. So now I’m flipping it back at you as promised. So do you ever feel judged as a partner and as a wife?
Sasha: Of course. I think you touched on that. I think maybe it’s just a woman thing. We just really have a lot. We set high expectations and then also juggling the what’s traditional and what’s now. Because yeah, I feel judged that there’s a lot of things I wish I could do more of or that I was maybe more of a homemaker type. I mean, especially my marriage, my biggest thing is that I wish I cooked better. I’m not a great cook, but that’s a woman thing that we’re supposed to somehow, it’s our job. It’s like you’re in charge of every meal and I was raised on raviolis and Dr. Pepper in a can. It’s not my thing. But he’s supportive in that aspect. And then if there’s ever times where maybe I’m feeling judged, I get very like, hey, if you don’t want me to pay any bills and do all that, I will gladly stay home. I will gladly be that homemaker. I’ll learn to cook, I’ll do all that. But nowadays, who can afford that? And women, we have drive, we have ambition, we have other things that we want to do. Yeah, I think he gets that. But I think we get inspired by each other like, oh, you’re doing xyz, well, I should get out of my funk and get back into it. So I think we balance each other. And I also think that I’m better at some things than he is and vice versa. So I might not be the cook, but he’s actually a great cook. So I was like, okay, you can take the reins on this. So I mean, we probably judge each other a little bit, but if anything, we turn it around and we kind of try to inspire each other or not project that too much.
Jen: Yeah. You brought up something that I think is so important in a conversation like this. It’s like how you were raised. I think it really informs how you move as an adult, whether you’re an adult with kids or an adult who doesn’t yet have kids. But I was raised, my mom was divorced. It was just me and my mom in the house. And so I saw this empowered woman. She was a doctor. She would go out and go run the world every day. And I used to love that. And I wasn’t looking for some five-course home-cooked meal every day. I was excited to root for her to go out and be a boss. And I remember just being so proud of her. I used to go to a daycare every day after school at the JCC, and I would walk from school over to the JCC and it would be like 25 kids. I would wait for their parents to come pick them up at 6 p.m. And my mom used to go on this talk show, and she would be the resident psychiatrist, sort of like the Dr. Phil pre Dr. Phil stuff currently. But she was that expert. And I used to have the counselors roll in a TV and make all the kids watch my mom on TV. And that was what made me proud. It wasn’t did my mom go to the bakesale and sell out her world-famous muffins. And there were other moms that did that that I thought were amazing. But I think it’s just about celebrating what your gift is and how you’re contributing to the world versus looking to fulfill someone else’s expectations of what you think a mom is supposed to do. So I think in my own life as a mom, the fact that I am achieving things and building things and trying new things and being bold and audacious and ambitious, I want to feel celebrated for that. Not feeling like someone’s like, where’s the dinner?
Sasha: Yeah, 100 percent. And I feel like so many people all grow up differently. We have different family structures. Everyone is very different nowadays. So I think the judgmental stuff is not as prevalent as it was.
Jen: Totally. I can totally agree with that. So another related question, what about your friend group? I think you’re at the phase where some of your friends have kids, right? Do you feel like they’re judging you and wondering when you’re going to join the mom tribe?
Sasha: Oh, for sure. 100 percent. I mean, we hear that a lot, but I’ve started to be a little bit more vocal with friends about our infertility journey so that they can kind of hone in on that because it’s not easy hearing that all the time. My best friend and I, for instance, we’d always dreamed of having, I was going to have the boy, she was going to have the girl at the same exact time, and they’re going to grow up together and they’re going to marry each other. And then we become in-laws and now we’re besties for life and we’re actually family, but things don’t work out that way. And so being a little bit more vocal, I felt like right after we got married, everyone was asking and when we realized there might be a problem or it’s not happening as quickly as we thought it was, being vocal with them so that they could kind of not put the pressure or judge. But they do. They ask.
Jen: And I think fortunately, folks are a little bit more evolved now, and thank goodness we’re talking about fertility openly. And it’s not just like there’s one roadmap and one way to do it, and you just check the boxes.
Sasha: It’s a scary conversation to have with people because you feel judged yourself like, oh my God, what’s wrong with me? It does happen for some people. It’s very easy or it happens accidentally and somehow it’s something you really want and you’re trying and it’s not happening for you. So you kind of feel like, what’s wrong with me? And then you also don’t want to put pressure on your spouse and other people to think, oh, well, was it him? Is it her? What’s your family? Do you have any other issues with your family? Does it run in your family? And it can open up so much. And it’s just so scary to even say that out loud to someone like we’ve been trying and it’s not happening.
Jen: It’s a scary thing to talk about. And I know even culturally for some cultures, it’s not something that’s spoken about really openly. I actually have a girlfriend who recently just had a baby girl, and she’s so cute, but she and her partner were on that fertility journey. Things didn’t happen as easily as they thought it would. And here’s the craziest thing. This is a crazy funny story. She was visiting a fertility doctor in New York going to her regular appointment, and she ran into her sister at the very exact same doctor. They did not know that each other were seeing this fertility specialist. They had never spoken about it, they’re full blood sisters, and they were pregnant at the exact same time visiting the same fertility doctor. And they were like, wait a minute. And so you know what they did next? They rang up their mom and they were like, mom, is there something about our fertility in our bloodline that you need to tell us about because we are both struggling with this and ran into each other at the same doctor. And their mom was like, oh yeah, I have fertility issues. And they were like, hello, did you want to tell us that this is something that we might encounter? And she was like, you never asked. And so that just goes to show, not everyone is in a position to talk about it.
Sasha: But it’s very different nowadays how much we’re vocal and we’re more honest. I think maybe my parents’ generation, they didn’t talk about these things and even miscarriages or things like that. I’m finding out things about my mom now that I’m like, you went through a miscarriage when and why? I knew there was a rough period in my late teens, and I’m like, you didn’t say anything or you didn’t vocalize this or you didn’t talk about this. That would’ve been nice to know or just even know your journey of what you’re going through. Maybe I would’ve been not such a mean teenager, but at least now the landscape has changed, where people can talk about their feelings. Jen: Yeah. Oh, for sure. And there’s no one that we judge harsher than we judge ourselves sometimes. And the pressure we put on ourselves, and I think that fertility is a perfect example, and you really kind of insinuated the same thing when you, I think especially as a woman, when your biological purpose is to reproduce and it’s not happening quickly, you feel like you can’t do it as you want it to. I mean, that is a huge thing to grapple with. And then once you grapple with it, embrace it, then you start researching your options. And fortunately, the options are much more vast than they used to be. But you made me think of something else too, Sasha. So I think there’s judgment that can come from your friend group, maybe when you don’t have kids yet, or really from an earnest place, they just want you to join the party and be like the literal playdate party and all the other good stuff. But I actually had a friend once ask me, he and his wife are raising one amazing daughter, so they’ve got an only child. And he asked me, hey, Jen, do you ever think people don’t invite you places because you have so many kids?
Sasha: I will own it. I’ll own up. So we just bought our first house last year, and I was so excited to be the host friend. I wanted to have all the parties, I wanted to do all the things. And our first party was the 4th of July last year. And we had some friends and friends that have kids all different ages all the way up until teens. And I just remember the next day, and my husband and I laughed, I was like, I’m not having friends with kids anymore. And he said the same thing. He’s like, oh my God, never again. I mean, obviously we would never exclude them. But to see things falling or spills and then just seeing the dirt everywhere, I was like, oh my God, these kids, this is a lot.
Jen: I mean, there’s no lie in anything you just said. The way that I walk around my house sometimes and I’m like, I can’t have anything nice. I’m like, I’ll be well into my 60s before I can buy anything nice. So yeah, I get it. I get it. And you have a right to want at least the first year in your new house to be protected and be sort of precious. You just got things set up. So I get it, but real life requires replacing shit.
Sasha: And then that actually makes me think of social media and how everybody looks so put-together on social media and then behind the scenes their home is absolute chaos because I mean, I do it too. I’ll curate the perfect little corner, but then behind the camera on my phone is just an absolute mess. And so it’s like, do you feel that pressure to keep it all perfectly curated or are you like, I can’t have nice things in this house, and that’s just what it is?
Jen: Yeah. It’s sort of like when you’re dating someone for the first time and you’re kind of dating their representative, and then you get into the relationship and you’re like, oh, wait, remember when you used to, oh, your representative used to do that. So I would say this, I’ve become very, very comfortable with my imperfections and the things I’m not good at, because if I was holding myself to this weird standard that is nowhere near my reality, I’d feel very at odds with myself every day. And my number-one mission in life is to keep my stress as low as possible, just already enough going on. I’m actually in my friend group, my immediate mom friend circle in my neighborhood, where we all pretty much do everything together, I’m sort of the wayward. I’m the mom that’s like, oh, they don’t expect me to have it together. Like, oh, you want something hosted perfectly? I’ve owned it, it takes a lot of pressure off like, oh, you want the trip to be planned perfectly or the itinerary to be done perfectly? Call the other one. And I’ve even had one of my girlfriends who does all the things. She’s a career girl. She’s a baddie, she looks amazing. She cooks, she makes homemade gelato, and if you’re listening to this, you know who you are. And she literally, she always makes time for her husband. She does all the things. She’s raising two boys. And so she said to me one day, she was asking me like, oh, are you going to pick up the x or do the y, whatever. She was asking me, and I was like, oh, no, I think my husband’s going to do that. She goes, well, what is it that you do? She paused for a sec. I’m feeling a little judged in this moment. And so I think it’s kind of a funny thing, but because I’ve very much accepted my role as this ambitious woman who is doing all these things, I know where my lane is, and I don’t have to be perfect at all the things.
Sasha: I like that you might feel like others are going to judge me, but I do not care. I’ve found my lane. I’m doing my thing. Judge me all you want.
Jen: Yeah, totally. Totally. And I mean, what about you for social media? Because I love following you. You’re sort of in this startup phase or newer chapter of you and getting your family life set up, getting the house, you’ve got the dogs, it’s very aesthetic. My favorite word, if y’all didn’t know, and everything is sort of in similar color ways and it looks very curated and I’m sure with intention. How do you resolve maybe the real things that might be happening behind that perfect curation?
Sasha: Yeah, like you mentioned, I curate everything and then I get a little down when I’m like, why is everything not so perfect? But finding that balance, I feel like I’m in that thick of it. I’m literally learning as we speak, finding the balance of being okay when it’s not perfectly curated. I mean, the house always needs to look good, and my office always needs to look like this, and we should look like this on social media and we should portray this, but I’m trying to learn that it’s not good for longevity, like you said, managing stress, especially with infertility, the main thing that they’re always telling you is, are you stressed? And then I had to stop and really pause and think and go, why am I so stressed? We have a great house. I’ve got a good job. I’m doing all the right things. Family is where it needs to be. Why am I inducing stress? Maybe I’m overthinking things. I have a lot of anxiety sometimes unnecessarily. I think even packing for this trip, I was like, I need to go get this done and that. And I’m like, pause. This should be fun. I should be enjoying it. And if it’s not perfect, okay, enjoy the ride. Social media, I think, does that to you. It makes you feel like when you’re not looking camera-ready or you’re doing the right things, it’s pressure, it’s stressful, and it’s like stop. You don’t need to feel that way. It’s okay if it’s not all put-together.
Jen: Yeah, I mean, it’s a game changer, man. I also attribute the choices I’ve made around acceptance. Like I said, my mom was a psychiatrist, so I also say that I got 21 free years of therapy before she sadly passed away, but I feel like she set me up to focus on the stuff that matters. So I love that you’re on that journey. And it’s an important one. And like they say, the only person that’s paying attention to you and judging, it’s probably you. No one else cares that much.
Sasha: I have to remind myself that a lot. I’m like, who is looking at, if I’m curating my feed? I’m like, is this a good cover picture? Who cares? Who is looking at this and going, oh, Sasha put that picture. Probably not. And if they’re stalking or looking, it’s like, I probably don’t even know about it. It’s like, do your thing.
Jen: Do your thing, do your thing. But I love this topic of social media because it’s so related to the whole conversation around judgment. So out of curiosity, I’ve got two scenarios in mind. So what are your thoughts about these glamour maternity photo shoots? Is that a thing you would do? And what’s your opinion, your POV on those in the sheer chiffon, blowing in the wind hair, Beyoncé fan lashes on giving life, what are your thoughts?
Sasha: I don’t know why, but I feel like they’re so cringe. I can’t. So yes, I’m judging. I mean, for instance, my wedding, I did not have a makeup artist. I did not get a video done. I didn’t have a hairstylist. I feel some of that is just too much. I like to have that balance of put yourself together, but be real. I feel like maybe I’m just not girly enough. Some girls are very girly and they want that pretty dress picture. I do like the sentiment of having something that you can remember though. Yeah, I do wish I had a video from my wedding. But at the time when I was planning, I’m like, oh, who needs this? Now I look back and I’m like, oh, I wish I got one. So I get why they do it, but I feel like they’re getting a little cringe where it’s like you said, it’s perfectly curated on the beach with a beautiful gown. I’m like, who is on the beach in a gown? Let’s do denim and a cute top. Let’s make it look like it’s shot on a phone and not touched up. Every little thing on you is touched up. What do you think of them?
Jen: I have some feelings. So I will first say that I never did a maternity shoot. It was not really my vibe. That said, I do understand why people want them for the memories, but have you ever walked into someone’s house and they’ve got a big lifestyle portrait, giant portrait above their fireplace of their pregnant belly? And I’m like, oh.
Sasha: And listen, even if they’re not pregnant, I’ve seen somewhere I walk in and I don’t really have many picture pictures and I’m like, do we need a 10-foot photo of yourself?
Jen: I mean, I’ve definitely seen my share of maternity shoot walls. I will say, I think it’s beautiful to capture those moments. And there’s almost something really cruel about being judgmental about that because sometimes it can go the way of you’re actually projecting because maybe it’s something you wanted to do, or you felt like it was too cringey so you weren’t bold enough and didn’t own it enough.
Sasha: That’s one thing on social that I admire about a lot of women when I see them posting things with no care and they’re doing what works for them, even though maybe a photo shoot that could be cringey for some, they’re doing what they do and they’re so open about it.
Jen: I agree. I think there’s something very empowered to those who are just like, you know what? I’m going to post this content. I’m going to do it. And I’ll tell you, I’ve had conversations with good girlfriends of mine who are like, they want to be influencers, but they don’t. And they want to be content creators, but they don’t. And it’s like they want to be a thought leader, let’s say in the fashion space or whatever, but they’re afraid to make content. Like, oh, but it’s too cringey. I’m like, you know what? You got to stop judging yourself and just go for it. So the other scenario that I was thinking of is the perfectly styled and curated holiday photos. Oh, you’re laughing. I’m giggling already. I think you know what I’m talking about. They have gone next level.
Sasha: Well, they died out for a bit, I feel, and then they came back again.
Jen: Maybe I missed the die-out because they never died out for me. I was like, oh, we’re wearing Vera Wang for the holiday shoot. It’s getting serious. We’re spending thousands.
Sasha: But celebs do the same thing. They’re all in matching $200 pajamas. And I’m like, can we get the Amazon ones?
Jen: I think that’s really what I’m remarking at. There’s a trend, or not even a trend, I think it’s actually very practical. Families will take family photos that they will then put on the holiday card. And so of course, it’s a family portrait. And so again, as the mom who kind of doesn’t have it all together, I’ve never taken not one family photo and my oldest son is 10. And so when I’m asked to submit a picture when my kids have something in school and they’re like, submit a family photo, I’m like, come on guys, let’s do a selfie. And it’s a very undone, unprofessional photo. So I’ve not done one, and I keep saying, maybe this will be the year that we do it. But the family photos are like, you’ve got the little kids in tuxes. It’s a black-tie situation.
Sasha: It’s a lot. And, like you said, in the spirit of not judging, it’s a good thing to have later. But in the moment, you’re like, who has time for this? And I’m not about this life either. But then later when you realize, oh my gosh, my son is probably getting to my height.
Jen: Totally. But speaking of the extra level it’s gone to, I’ve heard of people that are renting Airbnb mansions to do photo shoots. I’m like, that’s not your house.
Sasha: I don’t think I could get my husband to do any of that. He’d be like, yeah, right. What are we trying to project here? That is that curated look again, that it’s like, alright, now you’re a little out of touch. And the ones that actually know these people will probably be like that is not your living room. That’s not your tree. Well, Jen, I want to move into our closing segment, and it’s called To Judge or Not to Judge.
Jen: Yeah. I feel like I’ve already been a little too honest.
Sasha: So I do want to ask you, and I want to just throw some scenarios out there and whether we would judge in the moment or not. So people on a train or a bus that don’t give up their seat for a pregnant woman, are you judging that person who’s not getting up?
Jen: Okay. Not only am I judging, but during my second pregnancy when I was still commuting to the city, like a crazy person on the subway and, my belly was, I did not carry small for not one of my pregnancies. And my belly was out to here. I mean, it was huge. And these people refused to get up. They wouldn’t even look me in the eye. And so you know what I did? I recorded the whole thing and I outed them on Instagram. I would not only call them out, disappointed, angry and pissed, but I was vindictive. And then I told them they should be ashamed of themselves. And then when they finally begrudgingly offered to get up, I was like, I don’t want it. You enjoy your comfortable seat. So I was all the things, and I’m judging every single time. And if I’m not, I mean I don’t have any plans to be pregnant ever again, but if I find myself on a train since then and I see a pregnant person, I will literally call people out. You need to get up.
Sasha: Perfect. Okay. Well, you speak from experience with that. And then moving on to the next one, a toddler throws a tantrum in a store. Are you judging that parent or not?
Jen: No, I’m feeling a deep level of empathy, sympathy all the feels for the parent. When I see that, let’s say I’m in a big-box retailer, I literally want to go find the closest fruit snack and open up the fruit snacks and be like, here, I’ll pay for it. I’ll do that on a plane. I will literally think like, okay, mom’s alarm is going off. What do I have in my bag that I can give this parent to help them?
Sasha: The plane one is a good point. That happens living in Orlando. Every time I’m going home from anywhere, I’m on a plane full of people going on a vacation with their Mickey ears and their Mickey backpacks and everybody is through the moon excited. And I’m just like, I’m exhausted. I’m probably going home from a work trip or something. And I’m like, ugh. And there’s always kids right behind me that are like, mom, what are we doing next? Are we riding this? And I’m like, sometimes I’m like, shut up. But then I’m like, oh, you have to deal with this. You poor thing.
Jen: Yeah, no, I feel bad. And I have to say on the whole, I wish I had some wood to knock on, my kids were not crazy tantrum-throwers. So I’m just like, you know what? I had it decent. So I will try to help.
Sasha: Amazing. And so last segment before we sign off, we’re doing a Parent Truth. And Jen, I want to ask you, judging parents before you have kids is like what?
Jen: Saying you want to go to the Olympics for track and you’ve never run around your block. There you go.
Sasha: So it’s like someone like me trying to give you some words of wisdom and you’re looking at me like, oh honey, you have no idea.
Jen: I’ll just smile and nod. And I’m from the South. Oh, that’s lovely, Sasha. Lovely. That’s how I feel about that. In your head you’re like, yeah. Thank you sweetheart. Thanks for the wise words. And then I’ll roll my eyes and talk about you later.
Sasha: Awesome.
Jen: Alright, I think that’s it for today, Sasha. This was a very honest conversation. Might’ve said a little too much, but I swear we’re not judging. And also don’t judge us.
Sasha: Exactly.
Jen: Alright, we’ll see you next time. Thanks for tuning in.
Sasha: Thanks guys.